Dee Graham:
I’m Reverend Dee Graham and this is …
Dorothy Emerson:
I’m Reverend Dorothy Emerson.
Dee Graham:
We’ve both been involved in both the Interweave and Lambda Ministers over the time of our ministries. So Dorothy, you were in before me.
Dorothy Emerson:
So, I went to my first general assembly in 1983 and I was introduced to the UU Lesbian and Gay Caucus. Then in 1984, I attended a meeting where I found out two things that made me not exactly happy. First of all, the group was dominated by gay men. There were very few lesbians involved. I found out that their major agenda item was that they were going to put forth a resolution to support ministers who were performing gay marriages or services of union, I think, they were called. Yeah, that’s right. It was services of union.
Dorothy Emerson:
I had been in a group of women the year before in ’83 who had felt very strongly that the biggest thing we needed to work on was homophobia. We needed to develop some programs to help women’s groups and to help congregations address homophobia, so that gay people would feel more comfortable being part of the congregation.
Dorothy Emerson:
So the idea of marriage to me in ’84 seemed kind of irrelevant, because as a lesbian and as a lesbian feminist, my attitude toward marriage was it was a patriarchal institution, and it was certainly not something that we wanted to replicate in our relationships. So, who cared was basically my attitude.
Dorothy Emerson:
So I’m kind of a out there person. So, I raised the issue and of course I was shot down right away about, no, no, no, it’s really important. Ministers need their congregations to support them in doing these things, because they’re starting to get asked about it. So that part went ahead, the resolution was successful. But at the same meeting I found out that they were also planning a gathering, which they were calling a Unitarian Universalist lesbian and gay convocation.
Dorothy Emerson:
It was the first major gathering of UU gay folk, gay and lesbian folks from all over the country. It was in Houston, Texas, it was going to be in February of 1985. Well, I was horrified to learn that they were going to have a meeting coming up to do the planning for this and there weren’t any lesbians that were going to be at the meeting. So, I made enough of a stink about it that they invited me to be at the meeting.
Dee Graham:
That’s right.
Dorothy Emerson:
The person who was one of the co-coordinators or was the coordinator of the caucus at that point was Doug Strong. He told me later that he was not at general assembly, apparently, but he told me later that he was coming to Boston to this meeting to do battle with Dorothy Emerson. Later, we did become friends. But it was a battle and I had to fight for everything.
Dorothy Emerson:
One of the things that was really important in those days was that there’d be women’s space and a woman’s caucus, and they would not approve the idea of it. So we actually got to the convocation and women said, “Where’s the women’s space?” We created our own space and made a petition to have that at future gatherings.
Dee Graham:
Yeah.
Dorothy Emerson:
But I was successful at one thing. I was able to get a lesbian keynote speaker, Judy Grahn, who had just published the book, “Another Mother Tongue.” So that was a big success. But that meeting in Houston was actually kind of the beginning of the real grassroots widespread movement within Unitarian Universalism.
Dee Graham:
It really benefited me, because I didn’t get to go to a convo until some years later in Dallas. But at that point, there was a woman’s space, the entertainment was mixed. I appreciated what you had done, even not knowing you at the time, because I was able to actually actively take part and later become part of the board and part of the committee that, eventually down the line, it was in the ’90s, we made the change from UULGC and more letters to come, to Interweave, which had been a Doug Strong idea. I was reluctant about it, because I didn’t want to lose any component. However, that was the most practical solution.
Dorothy Emerson:
Yeah, and Interweave actually appeared as a name in 1985, but it wasn’t voted on. I found out later, one of the reasons it wasn’t accepted earlier was because Bob Wheatley did not like the idea, he wanted to call the group Gala.
Dee Graham:
Oh, okay.
Dorothy Emerson:
Because that was, yeah, that was in use at Ferry Beach.
Dee Graham:
Oh, okay.
Dorothy Emerson:
So, I have a feeling his influence —
Dee Graham:
And Ferry Beach was a gay men’s retreat that happened —
Dorothy Emerson:
Originally, it was supposed to be gays and lesbians.
Dee Graham:
Oh.
Dorothy Emerson:
But that’s one of the things that often doesn’t get talked about in this, is that there really were some pretty big differences between lesbian culture and gay men’s culture. It wasn’t exactly a natural alliance. This is also the height of the women’s movement and women and men were also … just straight women and men were having their differences and women were fighting to get onto boards and into leadership, which is still an ongoing issue.
Dee Graham:
Yeah, yeah.
Dorothy Emerson:
So within that context, you kind of might take straight men and women and put them in the middle here, and then put gay men over here and lesbians over here. So they were almost further apart than men and women who slept together.
Dee Graham:
Although, I think there’s a subtle difference here and that is that I came out as a lesbian before I discovered feminism. In those days, we would say, “Well, a lesbian can be the best friend to men, especially gay man, because we’re not competing for anything.”
Dorothy Emerson:
Actually, I think the more natural alliance is lesbians and straight men.
Dee Graham:
Well perhaps, but in those … well, they’re competing for the same women sometimes.
Dorothy Emerson:
Well, sometimes we are.
Dee Graham:
But I think that beginning perspective made the whole difference going into the women’s movement, of I didn’t have relationships with men in the same kind of power structure that a woman coming from a heterosexual norm would have, so it was kind of just a little different. Not that it was any less in the power structure, any less powerful, but it was just a difference. So when I went to general assembly in Hollywood, California, which I guess was 1990.
Dorothy Emerson:
’91.
Dee Graham:
’91, okay.
Dorothy Emerson:
Hollywood —
Dee Graham:
Oh, it was Hollywood, Florida.
Dorothy Emerson:
You mean, Hollywood, Florida.
Dee Graham:
That’s right. Oh, wow. So Hollywood, Florida, I had been accepted to Starr King School for the ministry and I was on my way to seminary. So for the first time, someone, and I think it was Doug Strong, slipped a little piece of paper into my hand and they said … it had this room number, 10:00. I’m like, “Oh, what is this?” But I’d been warned this might happen. So, I took this little piece of paper and I walked up to that room at 10:00 and knocked on the door, like at a speakeasy.
Dee Graham:
I go in and here are some of these prominent men that we heard about today, as our gay pioneers, really, and a few women. But it’s the Lambda Ministers Caucus. Some of these men were married, it was very secretive. You really had to be in the circle to get to go to this. I guess because I just popped in as this out lesbian from the start, they were ushering me into the deeper circles. Later, we worked with Lambda Ministers, where we got a grant and we could do planning and we were out and open and involved in —
Dorothy Emerson:
Yeah, we actually did workshops.
Dee Graham:
Yes.
Dorothy Emerson:
We actually did workshops and we had a newsletter. I came in somewhere along that line. I came in and they made me treasurer at the first meeting I went to and then they handed me a box. It had checks in it, some of which were three years old. So of course they couldn’t do cash, but I had to sort all that out. Then later I became co-coordinator. I think I might’ve been one of the last, the last co-coordinator, because by … well, that was … so that was really the 90s.
Dee Graham:
Well, technically, I’m still the head of Lambda Ministers, but I tried to turn it over to someone else two GA’s ago, and no one would take it. So we exist on paper, but the young people don’t want to be just Lambda Ministers, they now want to be the, it’s, what is it? The queer professionals —
Dorothy Emerson:
Yeah.
Dee Graham:
Something. So, it’s there for further development, but —
Dorothy Emerson:
Well, it fulfilled a very important function, I’m sure, prior to either of us being involved, because it was a safe space where people who really seriously could not come out. I don’t even know when it started, that would be the thing to find out.
Dee Graham:
I think one of the products that remains is that they try intentionally to have now among good offices, people, gay and lesbian specialists. That was one of our biggest requests as a minister of organization within the UU Ministers Association. So we had that.
Dorothy Emerson:
Well, in 1998 when I was co-coordinator, we got a grant from the UU Ministers Association, the larger ministers association, to have sort of, I guess it was kind of a brainstorming meeting. Helen Bishop facilitated.
Dee Graham:
Okay.
Dorothy Emerson:
Helen Bishop is a lesbian, but not a minister, but she’s been a consultant and a coach to ministers. In fact, at one point, she was my coach and very helpful, very helpful. Lynn Ungar was there and it was at Unity Church where Jay Deacon was. So Jay Deacon was there and we met in 1998. We talked about all the different things that the Guild should be doing and could do. But the problem was that all the lesbian and gay ministers that were around, and by then, I don’t even think there were bisexual or trans yet, or at least not out. But it was mostly lesbian and gay ministers. Nobody had any time.
Dee Graham:
Right.
Dorothy Emerson:
Because in addition to doing their ministries, they were also doing other organizations.
Dee Graham:
Yes.
Dorothy Emerson:
So we had a lot of good ideas about what Lambda could do, but just like you found, nobody wants to do it, because it wasn’t such a desperate need anymore. Once we were out, once we were being settled, it wasn’t such a desperate need.
Dee Graham:
Yeah. So, what a path we have gone and seen in our lifetime.
Dorothy Emerson:
Yeah, and that was just within one decade, because we’re talking about ’91 to ’98. That wasn’t even a whole decade. So —
Dee Graham:
Yeah. Of course, it didn’t fix what was out to be conquered yet, but it certainly gave us the kind of support we needed in those early years.
Dorothy Emerson:
I think by ’98, most ministers had their own support groups, including some straight ministers that were part of their support groups. So they didn’t so much need to … you don’t agree, you look like you …
Dee Graham:
Well, my experience was different, because I was in the South, I think. I mean, I don’t know that that’s the case, but in each section of the country, it’s kind of different. I was in California —
Dorothy Emerson:
Yeah, and I was in Massachusetts.
Dee Graham:
I was in California, there were plenty of lesbian and gay people and it wasn’t an issue. When I went to the South to do ministry, it was a huge issue. There weren’t other LBGT ministers of many. So that’s probably why I continued to be more involved, but there weren’t a lot of colleagues on the same path.
Dee Graham:
I remember setting a table at one general assembly for Lambda Ministers to meet when you had interest areas during UUMA during lunchtime. I set up the Lambda Minister table and John Buehrens came over with another colleague or two and he says, “Oh, this is a joke. It’s not really Lambda Ministers, we can sit here.” I said, “Oh, hi John, it is Lambda Ministers and you’re welcome to stay.”
Dee Graham:
He just kind of looked at me, but then pretty soon Gretchen Woods came over and sat down, and she says, “Is this Lambda Ministers?” I said, “Well, yes it is.” Then John got up and left. I don’t know, what was that about?
Dorothy Emerson:
He didn’t want to be identified.
Dee Graham:
Well, apparently —
Dorothy Emerson:
He thought he could steal your table, but —
Dee Graham:
Well, he would have been welcome to be a Lambda Minister, but I guess he had other things to do. So, that’s kind of how it goes sometimes. But it’s been great to have a place to do ministry and to have a denomination where we can become mainstream. So —
Dorothy Emerson:
Absolutely.
Dee Graham:
And to be here.
Dorothy Emerson:
Yes, it’s good to be here. Absolutely.
Dee Graham:
All right, thank you.
Dorothy Emerson:
Thank you.